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November 28, 2007

Comments

Well said Assemblyman. Keep up the good work. I see you as a man standing holding fast to his beliefs, holding our flag and the honor of OUR country fast.

Thank you.

pipes got owned

Stop focusing on standing for the pledge, look at the reality of the situation. Pipes is a racist and a psudo/ joke scholar. Don't you think more people would stand for the pledge if the flag represented what the pledge says or if the government wasn't so corrupt? I love this country because I have my rights, however, this countries GOVERNMENT is murderous and treachorous.


But seriously, Constantine you were up in Omar's face. I know you are sad because you got embarrased last night. Ooh and choose words a little bit wiser, you told someone the MSU prayer last night was evil.

Chuck DeVore

To: pipes got owned "Pipes is a racist and a psudo/joke scholar"?

What, then, is your definition of a scholar? Someone with whom you agree?

Pipes received his A.B. (1971) and Ph.D. (1978) from Harvard University, both in history. He spent six years studying abroad, including three years in Egypt. He speaks French, and reads Arabic and German. He has taught at the University of Chicago, Harvard University, the U.S. Naval War College, and Pepperdine University. He has also written twelve books, four of which deal with Islam.

Sounds like a scholar to me.

Your arguments to the contrary weaken your point significantly. You are rapidly marginalizing yourself.

All the best,

Chuck DeVore
State Assemblyman, 70th District
www.ChuckDeVore.com

peace4all

I was there and a few Muslims did stand up. However, keep in mind that they were not there to participate in the program. They were there for one reason and one reason only and that is to exercise their right to freedom of speech. I agree 100% with mechanical eye on the loyalty-oath bullying. DeVore emphasized on "looking bad." What good does looking good do, when the inside, who a person really is, is rotten? That is why the world is being swarmed by corrupt politicians and leaders. That is what corrupt politicians do, they do the little things to earn people's respect, to make them selves look good and then act according to their own personal agenda. It is ridiculous, sad and disgusting all at the same time. I'm positive that many Muslims have no problem with standing up and saying the pledge of allegiance, however they did have a problem with the program and the people who were leading it. Why would they join the people who are there to spread hate and lies towards them? Would a black man stand up and say the pledge of allegiance with the leaders and followers of the KKK??? The American Muslims did nothing wrong. They were abiding by their right to peacefully assemble, the right to believe in one God and their right to freedom of speech. These are all rights that are granted to them in the bill of rights. To take that away from them, to criticize them for it, that is un-American.

Varangy

@Wali

You wrote:


Hey I am a member of MSU at UC Irvine and I participated in the walk out. I have to say that you need to understand how intolerant this guy is; he is quoted as saying that the interment of Japanese during World War II wasn't as bad as people make it out to seem.

That is certainly debatable, is it not? I do not know if the internment of the Japanese (and Italians BTW) during WW II was as bad, was worse, or wasn't as bad as people make it out to be.

By this he is implying that doing the same to Muslims would be acceptable. Now if someone said something like that about your ethnic group or religious group would you stand by and do nothing.

This is pure, inaccurate supposition. Please quote Dr. Pipes as to his opinion on the possible internment of Muslims in the USA.

Also you need to realize that the Jewish student union does similar things during our events like, sing their national anthem, or run around in banana costumes.

This is clearly rude behavior --- but two wrongs do not make a right, do they?

Further more many muslims feel like why should they pledge their allegiance to a nation that treats us like 2nd class citizens, (like profiling at airports, and nonstop bashing in the media).

How should we conduct security checks? It is fact that most terrorists are Muslim --- this is not to say that all Muslim are terrorists.

Muslims are more likely treated as second class citizens in Muslim countries -- don't believe me? Let's look at the civil strife in Iraq between the Shia, Sunni and Shiite.


For example all the muslim students had to pass through metal detectors to get in whereas other students wernt even checked. I'm just as American as everyone else, there was no need to even have one security guard there, we weren't going to blow anything up. Now if you really want to know how to defeat terrorism there is no need for more war like Daniel Pipes and other neo conservatives would argue, no need to spend billions of dollars, no need to kill soldiers or brown people, its called CHANGING FOREIGN POLICY!!!!

How would you change foreign policy? (I am serious BTW) What would you do if you were POTUS?

BTW did you support Clinton's bombing of Serbia and Kosovo in the 90s?

Flowerszzz

It does not matter if they were there to participate or not.....the point is that without that flag they would NOT be allowed to protest or choose to participate. We are expected to "honor" your right to protest....in like we expect YOU to honor the flag that allows you this freedom. It is very disrespectful to not participate in the pledge period. You don't have to say the words BUT you do have to stand....if you want to be respected act respectfully.

Silence Dogood

"I came into UCI a Republican, no lie."

X -

I seriously doubt you. You are either lying or the MSU and campus Left have done an amazing job "re-educating" you. If you are currently a fourth-year senior at UCI, then you must have begun your college tenure in the Fall of 2003. The War in Iraq began on March 20, 2003 and, of course, the War in Afghanistan started long before that. Could you please explain to me what aspect of the Bush foreign policy has changed since Fall 2003 (since you supposedly went to UCI a Republican)? It seems to me it hasn't. Muslim extremists were and still are the target of American military attacks. If you did in fact go to UCI a Republican, how did you reconcile your membership in the Republican Party with what you assert you believe?

So, I think you're a liar or, possibly, a super senior going on a fifth, sixth, seventh, or eighth year of college (at the taxpayers' expense).

To gain citizenship in this country, foreigners are required to recite an oath of allegiance. We expect that of our citizens. You said you "only pledge allegiance to God." Now that, to me, seems to validate a few of your opponents' points - that Islam and America are incompatible. Based just on your statement, I'm not sure at this point if I don't agree with you.

Jonathan Constantine

Pipes got owned,

I am not embarrassed about last night. You guys never prayed. Nor did I intend to disrupt it.

All you did was have some guy talk about how terrible Jewish people are. That's pretty embarrassing.

As for my friend. You and your thugs surrounded him and were using very foul and intimidating language. You had no intention of engaging in serious debate. That's funny for a so called "pious bunch."

Wali

Hey its me again and I would like to say that the MSU realizes that there are alot of problems in Muslim countries too. We also wish that could change too, but unlike our Jewish counterparts we can admit that our people have problems. Hillel and AFI get offended when we criticize the country of Israel and the political movement of Zionism, as though we are attacking there religion. The president of Hillel actually wrote in our newspaper that Attacking Zionism is akin to attacking Judaism. First and foremost Zionism is a POLITICAL movement that began in the 19th century or somewhere around that time, and Judaism is a 3000 year old religion. Basically these groups know that they can't beat us in a debate over Zionism so they call us anti-semitic and terrorists to delegitimize us. That is why the sign in the picture is saying "we will not be silenced", and why we wore masking tape over our mouths. David Horrowitz even wrote in our paper that MSU at UC Irvine supports Hamas! As though we are actively funding them or something.Furthermore as I have mentioned what we criticize and what they criticize are on completly different levels. We criticize Zionism and the ocupation in Palestine, they criticize our religion- like when they brought three former ex terrorists to campus who only talked about how Islam is an evil religion and how they had converted to Christianity. They have a right to say whatever they want, but clearly there is a difference in what they do and we do. On the topic of our speakers, none have ever said anything negative about any Jewish or Christian prophets (becasue we beleive in them too). Unlike their speakers who attack our prophet on a regular basis. We have even brought holocaust survivors and rabbis on campus to speak, which is more than Hillel has ever done. Also there were several Jewish students who walked out with us, one of whom gave our closing speech. Also alot of the people commenting on this page don't even go to UC Irvine and judge us based on biased reports in the media. Most politically active people on campus side with MSU and we are not hated by our fellow students like people want you to believe. And not to sound arrogant but Hillel and AFI dont like us becasue we are the most organized, and outspken group on campus, and because we are basically "winning the PR war on campus" if anyone can win such a thing. Furthermore now that you are armed with the truth, that we are not Anti-semetic and that we dont support terrorism I hope you understand that the next time someone calls the MSU at UC Irvine anti-semetic you will know the truth (because you will never hear our side on the news) and that we refuse to remain silent. PS standing up for what you believe in is more American than standing up for the pledge of allegiance.

Silence Dogood

Wali -

I think you know very little about what it is to be an American. And your platitudinous shots are less accurate the farther you run away. What a weak rebuttal.

Flowerszzz

Wali - you are wrong. You would not be able to stand up for what you believe in were it not for that flag. I just love kids that think they know it all. Wali. take an AMERICAN history course to learn what it means to be an American and why we pledge allegence to the flag. You dont have to salute the flag at your own meetings of course but when there is a flag salute going on you should...you disrespect your country, all those that have fought and died for your freedoms...so that you are allowed to be a know it all twit, with no life experience, that is able to protest.

Tova

Untrue, MSU. Isn't your group the one who has repeatedly sponsored Amir Abdel Malik Ali?

How on earth could *that* be considered "moderate"?

Tova

"... unlike our Jewish counterparts we can admit that our people have problems." - Wali

Sounds pretty "moderate" to me.

killerjoe

Wali just said it all "We're winning the pr war". I did'nt know there was a war on campus. I don't hear any Jews or Christians talk about a war on campus. How screwed up are these people.

Wali, you should be ashamed.

killerjoe

Wali just said it all "We're winning the pr war". I did'nt know there was a war on campus. I don't hear any Jews or Christians talk about a war on campus. How screwed up are these people.

Wali, you should be ashamed.

Wali

These last comments somewhat prove my point, of how everything we say is misconstrued. Of cource there is no PR war on campus and Im not advocating one either. I was saying that the MSU promotes its causes better than other groups. Furthermore it is true that some muslim countries are oppressive, we know this and are not proud of it. But we admit this and zionist groups cannot admit that what Israel is doing is wrong as well. Also you are doing exactly what I said in my last article, you are painting me as a radical and an anti-semitic to dismiss me.

Wali

Also for your information I stood up during the pledge of allegiance, and I know what it means to be an American I was born here, lived here all my life, I love what this country was built on, the American people are tolerant and kind people. I dont know it all and neither do you Flowerrzz. For your information I have taken a advanced placement courses on American history and got an A in that class and passed the AP test with a 4. So dont tell me I dont know what it means to Be american. THis is why we muslim-AMERICANS are so alienated because of people like who who will never accept us becasue we hold veiws opposite your own.

killerjoe

I am not painting you as anything. I am simply stateing that you seem radical, and anti-semitic to me, and I would never dismiss you, or any of your ilk.

Silence Dogood

Wali -

Ha! You're honestly citing a grade in a class no doubt taught by a left-wing tenured radical? The facts you regurgitated to receive that grade mean nothing if not applied toward respect for the American political culture. And, like it or not, the Pledge of Allegiance is a part of that culture.

Your associates are the ones digging you into a hole. One of them defiantly stated he/she "only [pledged] allegiance to God." Do you disagree with him/her?

Wali

Thanks Killer Joe I appreciate that you are not trying to paint me as anything, and I think you have missed the point of what I was trying to say. That I and MSU are not radical, and we are not anti-semitic. I don't know how many times I can say it, but it is the truth. Just because we are pro-Palestinian doesn't mean we hate Jews, that is like saying that someone who is pro-Israeli hates Muslims. It really makes me sad when people say that we are radicals and anti-semetic because they are using those terms to deligitimize us. One clear example of what I am trying to say was during spring quarter of this year when during one of our events a student who didn't like what we had to say had purposely dressed up in traditional Muslim clothing, his face was covered and he was holding a sign that read "death to the infidels". He was doing this to make us look bad and associate our message and us as terrorists. This really struck a nerve with us, because he was promoting the stereotype of Muslims that we have been trying to dispel. But to us Daniel Pipes is really racist, I beleive in the speech he gave yesterday he said that we should restrict the right of muslim americans to vote. Now if that is not racism what is? With that being said all this arguing on this post is not going to solve the problems in the middleast and neither will if end terrorism or the occupation, so with those words I end becasue I need to go back to studying.

Chuck DeVore

Wait a minute there, Wali, I actually listened to Dr. Pipes speech. So, unless you were part of the one or two people from the MSU who stayed to listen, you could not possibly know that, as you wrote, "...in the speech he gave yesterday he said that we should restrict the right of muslim americans to vote." This is patently false. Untrue. A lie. Dr. Pipes never said such a thing last night – not even close to it.

In fact, it calls to mind that dissimulation is an approved tactic in the Islamic tradition to advance the cause (see: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dissimulation).

In addition, it is a fact that the Muslim Student Union at UCI has had speakers on campus who have called for the destruction of Israel, a member state in the United Nations, and who have said hateful things against Jewish people, not just "Zionists" as you claim.

Lastly, I was unaware that Muslims are part of a "race." Someone who is biased against Muslims would therefore be a bigot, not necessarily a racist – unless you yourself ascribe to one of the traditional Islamic religious practices that believes only Arabs can be first class Muslims (true members of The Ummah) while others cannot be – a truly racist doctrine if ever there was one.

All the best,

Chuck DeVore
State Assemblyman, 70th District
www.ChuckDeVore.com

Chuck DeVore

Regarding Arab superiority within Islam, is it not true that there is a special place for the Arabs within Islam?

The Quran is written in Arabic.

The Quran was delivered to, given to, revealed to, the Arabs, the best of people.

That best of men, Mohammad, was an Arab, as were the Companions.

The Quran itself ought not be seriously read in any language other than 7th Century Arabic, even if one speaks English or is from India or Pakistan and has little working knowledge of Arabic.

While in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are there not signs that say: "Muslim" and "Non-Muslim" as well as within The Ummah, signs further demarking, "Arab" (1st class) from "non-Arab" (2nd class).

Is this not so? Is this not a form of racism? Of apartheid of both religion and race?

All the best,

Chuck DeVore
State Assemblyman, 70th District
www.ChuckDeVore.com

 fouse, gary c

Daniel Pipes Talk at UC Irvine

Since I teach part-time at UC Irvine and have spoken out many times on the activities of the Muslim Student Union there, I was planning to attend Dr Pipes talk to observe and report on the reaction from the MSU. Unfortunately, I was unable to attend due to family emergency.

Today, however, I was interviewed by the David Project regarding the problems at UCI, an interview that was arranged by Reut Cohen, a recent UCI grad and former leader of Anteaters for Israel at the UCI campus. I was able to get a short briefing from her regarding last night's events. What I will say here is second-hand, and surely will be reported on Reut's blog as well (I have a link on my site). According to Reut, there were no serious disturbances. MSU members did show up in the hall, many with their mouths taped up and bearing posters. When Mr Pipes began his talk, they walked out.

What is interesting is that as the event opened, there was a pledge of allegiance. Most of the Muslims in the audience remained seated and refused to participate. Now, to be fair, I should state that someone who is not a US citizen should not be expected to recite the pledge of allegiance, though it would be a sign of respect to at least stand, as one would do when any country's national anthym is being played. However, from my own observations at last week's speech by Yvonne Ridley at UCI, most of the Muslim attendees at that event spoke native English. It is my belief that most of these young people are indeed American citizens. If that is the case, their refusal to recite the pledge of allegiance speaks volumes.

Consider on the other hand that Ms Cohen has recently enlisted in the US Army, and will begin serving her country in January. Quite a contrast, don't you think?

gary fouse
fousesquawk

Flowerszzz

Wali-I am glad you at least stood up for the pledge. You can take all the classes in the world, with honors BUT it will not give you any street smarts nor common sense. Only life's experiences can give you that. Extremists, on any issue, never get anywhere - at least in this country. What I have learned in my life's experience is that you have to stand up for what you believe in, and be willing to hear what others believe, find a common or middle ground and start from there. If you TRULY want to educate people on your beliefs...that is what you should be doing. ALL great leaders of this country have done so.

Wali

To the congressman I am not sure of what he said, I wasn't there but that is what I heard from hearsay. But If he didn't say it then I'm sorry about misquoting him. Congressman you seem to have a one sided view of this issue I would like to invite you and anyone else to come to one of our events so you could decide for yourself on this matter. If you accept I will talk to the higher ups in the club and get something organized, and maybe even have you speak if you would like to. But I have a feeling that you will not take me up on this offer because you will surely be criticized by people who dislike us, and those groups will do everything to get you from attending and criticize you relentlessly if you do. But I ask because we are also your constituents and in the sake of fairness you should here both sides of something before you make a decision.

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