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October 24, 2007


Been Around

Pat Bates has made this argument many times and she is being proven correct. We need this road for disaster evacuation and well as for traffic relief. It is time for the nut case enviros to get lost and let us BUILD IT NOW.

DP Resident

It doesn't matter how wide they make the 5 freeway. When a fire is burning on the side of the road it will be closed. An alternate to the 5 freeway is needed, not only to relieve congestion, but to provide an alternative to the 5 in case it is closed.

I just knew the TCA would be all over this.

Yeah, give the people more access and opportunity to start the fires out there.

Most of this firefight has been done by air.

Theodore Judah

Really, 9:17? That's your argument? Finishing the 241 will give access for people to start fires? Good luck making that spin stick.

I'm sure our firefighters on that ground who have been holding the fire back with fire breaks and actually digging out vegetation will be inspired by your comments denigrating their efforts.

the facts

Ummm, last I checked the 241 was closed for most of the evacuations. And where are they housing the evacuees? Oh yeah that's right at the San Mateo Campground, the very same campground that will have to be abandoned if the toll road is built.

Check your facts

Actually the 241 was open for when they were evacuating areas of Foothill Ranch and Portola Hills...

And the 241 won't go through the San Mateo Campground. In fact it would be further from that campground than the I-5 would be from the beach campgrounds.

It is disappointing that State Parks would choose to politicize the issue by threatening to close it down. Especially since it is being used during this emergency.


It is disappointing that State Parks would choose to politicize the issue

It's ok for Theodore to write an article politicizing the issue, though?

I guess politicization is ok if you agree with the point being made. Otherwise it's "disappointing."


This is just plain silly.

Fires jumped the 241, the 14 AND the 215... in the last five days. Even the mighty 5 freeway was not considered adequate, and indeed has been jumped in previous fires.

This has got to be the silliest argument I've seen in favor of the 241. First, it won't wash with anyone who's been following the fires. Worse, the "evacuation" reference reinforces an anti-241 claim: building the 241 means another 200,000 people that will have to be evacuated during the next fire. Lastly, using the fire to score political points when people are still evacuation centers shows questionable taste.


p.s. I have no dog in this fight. Giving how laughably hysterical the arguments on both sides of this "debate" have been, I'm really glad few of my tax dollars are at stake.

check your facts

tylerh,do you believe Rancho Mission Viejo won't build their 14,000 homes without the 241? They've stated the opposite. Those homes have been approved and are going in with or without the road.

I don't understand the argument that because a road doesn't stop every fire every time, the fact that it often is a firebreak is not an advantage.

Since firefighters don't stop every fire every time, maybe we should let all fires go until they run out of fuel and put themselves out.

By Theodore's logic we should surround all communities with highways. That'll show those pesky fires.

Wake up the enviros!

Hmmm... Five anti-241 postings in the last hour... Someone sent out a blast e-mail.

Viva El Toro

We should open El Toro International Airport for business immediately. Then the aerial tankers could help put out the fires.

RMV development is proposed to have 14,000 homes, however,they are depending upon using Ortega Hwy to be widened in San Juan Capistrano to mitigate for the extra traffic. SJC is fighting the widening because it will ruin their town. RMV only has permits for 1100 homes right now. Each time they go to build additional homes, it must go through the county. It will become apparent the traffic studies were incorrect and they will need the 241 to support additional development. RMV does not have permits for the 14,000 homes, only the zoning that would allow up to this amount. RMV can say what they want, but we know they need the 241. Look at what happened with development after the 73 went in, thousands of homes sprung up. It is naive to think that RMV doesn't want the 241 to support the mitigation of traffic caused by their development.


dear check_your_facts:

1. I don't care if the 200,000 number is complete fantasy. I don't have a dog in this fight. My point was clear: by raising evacuation issue the the pro-241s are reinforcing an anti-241 talking point. Odd.

2. "I don't understand the argument that because a road doesn't stop every fire every time, the fact that it often is a firebreak is not an advantage."

How about this: there are cheaper ways to build a fire break.

There are already fire breaks all over the Cleveland National Forest. 200 firefighters are reinforcing one of those breaks between the Santiago Fire and Elsinore as I type this. The fact you are arguing to spend multiple years and several hundred millions of dollars to build a fire break that a 'dozer crew could make in few months make me wonder: are you a Democrat?

check your facts


1) "by raising evacuation issue the the pro-241s are reinforcing an anti-241 talking point." What are you talking about? How is having an alternative evacuation route an anti-241 talking point? There are people living in San Clemente today. Those people deserve more than one route in and out of town. There is currently a roadway that stops 16 miles short of giving them that option. How is that an anti-241 talking point?

2) I'm not saying that the 241 should be completed in order to have a firebreak. I am saying that it happens to be an added benefit of the project. The 241 should be built so we can have traffic relief and traffic alternatives. It will also be helpful to those living in San Clemente to have another option to get out of town if they need to. It will also be helpful to emergency vehicles who need to get to or from San Clemente quickly. And yes, it would also provide a firebreak. But no, I would not recommend building it if its only purpose was a firebreak.

I would also not recommend building a football stadium if its only purpose was to shelter people during an emergency, but as folks in San Diego have found out, it's a nice added benefit.

Fire jumped 12 lanes in San Diego and made it across the 5. With the rights wind conditions,lack of humidity, and fuel no man made structure will be successful in holding fir back.

By the way all of you need to go to the beach or go for a hike and think about what this road will really bring. More homes, more congestion, and a decrease in the quality of all of our lives. The 73 just made it easier for more homes to be built.

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