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October 12, 2007

Comments

Ready to pull the plug

I do make a decent living being a deputy but I do expect to be paid a comparable salary. When other agencies are paying their officers and deputies more money than ours (some quite a bit more)I would hope my employer would realize they need to step up and make it worth my while to stay. I have been here almost 20 years so it is not that easy to just pick up and hire on with another agency. I am comfortable here and have many close friends. The way the county is acting though has me considering my options. I will give them a chance to make good before I leave. With my experience and my reputation I will get picked up fairly quickly. As for your statement "deputies get benefits other could only dream about". Well then stop dreaming and apply. Less than 1% of all who ever apply get hired, complete the academy, work for 25 plus years and do the job until retirement age. It is a life draining pain in the ass job...so pay me well or I leave!

skeptical

So you have 1,400 deputies, and that represents only 1 percent of those who go through the academy, reach retirement, etc?

I don't believe that.

If you don't like your pay, go work somewhere you do like your pay.

Ready for you to pull the plug

To "Ready to Pull the Plug" -- Please leave! We will all be better off. It's an endless gravy train -- a public agency takes the lead in granting substantial pay increases, then the government unions all scream -- look at X agency -- you need to match that for our union -- it's the market!

Ridiculous!

safe at home

I keep hearing how safe OC is, so the low pay can't be affecting job performance.

We're getting the desired outcome at the existing pay, why increase it?

Publius

Last time I checked, the ASSOCIATION of Deputy Sheriffs worked for it's members, like any other group.
But you knew that when you wrote otherwise.

Bullies behaving badly

Well said, Jubal, except you left out one important fact: This is nothing more than two bullies (Sheriff Mike Carona and AOCDS President, Wayne Quint) trying to impose their will on the rest of us. Shame on Carona for allowing this to happen. Since he was elected by us to represent public safety, then why isn't he barking loud and clear to the rank and file that he will not tolerate any slacking off? Apparently, he'd rather play union politics than uphold his oath of office as the Sheriff of O.C.

Please stop giving Carona a pass on this whole contract mess he helped create.

jd

The public need not not "dream" of the the pension we were given.

They only need to apply like we did!

Tim

While the job action has been characterized in the media as a "work slowdown" it is actually a "work to rule." The Deputies are only following their procedures and policies to the letter. The result is that it takes much longer to get inmates to court. How could the Sheriff "bark" at the deputies when they are doing their jobs properly?

Ready to pull the plug

There are two topics here. First, Governor Calvin Coolidge made that comment right before he had all the officers on that department fired. That was a long time ago and a lot has changed. The officers were paid extremely poorly and many resorted to corruption to make ends meet. I agree there is no right to strike AGAINST public safety; however, every peace officer has a right to fight for better pay to support and provide for their family. This means they should be allowed to have job actions that do not affect the safety of the public or the deputies. The County wants deputies to do their jobs professionally. What the public does not realize is the County wants it done quickly or "efficiently." This means short cuts are taken. Deputies make sure these short cuts do not affect public safety but sometimes they are at the expense of the safety of the deputy. A job action brings the deputies back to the proper and safe way of working. Unfortunately, this means officers may not be able to clear calls as quickly because all of the information that should be obtained now as opposed to later will be obtained. Technically there should be more deputies in each city, in the jails and in the courts. This would be the correct way to make sure the public and deputies who risk their "lives" daily are safe. However, we all know the County does not want to recognize that and does not want that to get out; it would cost too much money.

The second topic is an increase of pay and benefits. In case you don't realize it, the cost of living in Orange County is well above the average. In addition, while gas prices, housing prices and living costs have continued to increase without our input, the pay for the Orange County Sheriffs have not. Although, the Board of Supervisors have. Most of the Deputies took on the job for the excitement and experience of living a childhood dream. Dreams over, they have to live and think about the future. If you don't know, the deputies in Orange County already gave part of their past pay raise and paid into the retirement the County now wants to take away.

As one last comment, ask most any one and they will probably agree the world of fairness with respect to pay and retirement has been screwed up for years. How does a 17 year old skate boarder make millions of dollars each year for "skateboarding" and cops and teachers have to fight for a "little bit more?" Not millions.......

Something else to think about

Okay, so a newpaper reporter makes 100k a year. No one questions, complains or says "ridiculous". A grocery check makes 75K a year and no one complains, or says "ridiculous". An assembly worker makes 40 bucks an hour. When they want a raise they have a lawful right to srike. Cops are forbidden from strikes. They make a whopping 60K a year and all you self rightous monday morning quarterbacks say we ride the gravy train. Why would anyone want to be a cop when they are thought so poorly of??? Oh by the way who you gonna call when your world falls apart???? 9-1-1.
BTW. Of all the people who ever apply for the job less than 1% of those WHO EVER APPLY pass, the test, medical, psych, academy, probation and complete a career.

jake

Sad fact is that most cops don't survive 5 years past retirement. The county never fully pays what it thinks it pays anyway.

Jubal,

Just what exactly is "a retirement package most Americans today can only dream about having themselves". Are you talking about our negotiated retirement or the retirement that the BOS is trying to give us by way of a lawsuit?

With our retirement up in the air I may not be able to retire in three years as I had planned, I may have to stay for another eight. I'm sure that the Deputies that are already retired don't like the fact that they are looking at loosing 1/3 of their retirement.

How come after a year of negotiations the BOS have thrown our retirement into the negotiations? It's because they know that they won't win in a court of law and now they are trying to save face.

The BOS also want to split the pool for our retiree's medical. This will never happen. Our medical fund is self sufficent and we will not vote for a contract that splits the pool. I'd like to see some of the retired OCEA members comment on this. The current OCEA members were sold a bill of goods on this one. Some of the retired OCEA members have seen their rates go up 70%.

If the BOS gets these two ideas our of their thick skulls we will settle this contract in no time.

Oh and by the way, all of you winers out there, the next test for Deputy Sheriff is on the 20th of this month. Why don't you show up and take the test or shut your mouths.

Tim Steed

Calvin Coolidge also said:

"Those who trust to chance must abide by the results of chance."

The OC Board has taken a huge chance in challenging the legality of the AOCDS Pension. Mr. Moorlach you have taken a chance, time to live by it.

AOCDS and the sheriffs they represent are the backbone of our society. They are the ones who go head to head with rapists, murders and the people we in the civilized society shun.

A Deal is a Deal. Live by it, or accept the fate the game of chance is going to give you. The only thing at stake is our tax dollars on this million dollar game of chicken the sups have put on us.

Tim Steed, President
California Young Democrats


Green Machine

Jubal,

I understand your concerns ( I really do), and I think AOCDS has been more than willing to negotiate with the county to end this stalemate, but sooner or later something has got to give. Ever since John Mooralch was seated, the county has stonewalled the association. They show up at labor negotiations with a set of demands and when the association agrees to them or is willing to work on them, the county comes back to the next meeting and completely ignores their prior stance and creates a new set of circumstances. This has happened time and again.

Believe it or not, the last thing deputies want to do is tangle up the courts or tamper with court cases. In fact steps have been taken to make sure no criminals or pre-sentenced inmates have been set free.

But lets be realistic. If the deputies had continued on with things the way they were, the BOS would continue to stonewall. At least now they are discussing their options. Whether or not they actually get anywhere remains to be seen, but what other options would you propose?

Deputies cannot strike, they cannot have a mass "sick out" and they cannot ignore 911 calls etc... A "work to rule" is one of very few options. Quite frankly I think the work to rule demonstrates how many corners are cut due to insufficient staffing and limited resources. Maybe that is something that should be looked at after the labor contract issues are resolved.

I know AOCDS met with the County today, but I have no idea what transpired. I also know the BOS will meet behind closed doors to discuss the situation. CEO Mauk has finally entered the labor talks (until now NO negotiator has been empowered to negotiate) so hopefully progress can be made. But make no mistake about it. The Board of Supervisors has as much to do with this public safety issue as the deputies.

ricco

I think you can ask any Deputy who they work for and that answer will be ---- the public.

Your title "AOCDS Needs To Remember Who They Work For" is very disingenuous, if not in fact misleading.

Maybe the public needs to remember who works for them and what they 'owe' those who do work for them.

Sergeant

Jubal,

I'm sure that you're aware that the late arrival of the defendant for court is only a minor inconvenience for everyone involved.

That's because there are loads of other rules that deputy sheriff's in the jails need to comply with to ensure that the administration of justice for every one of over 6,000 inmates in custody on a daily basis in not interferred with.

Plus, hundreds of thousands of inmates are transported to court in Orange County every year and the deputy sheriffs that do this need to comply with additional rules for each inmate to ensure their administration of justice.

Then, the deputy sheriff's in the courthouses get to handle these inmates with still more rules to comply with.

Thousands of inmates in custody and hundreds of thousands of inmate trips to court with each inmate requiring the daily application of many, many rules for each of them.

For example, did you know that...

Deputy sheriff's need to ensure that the defendant received eight hours of uninterrupted sleep on the night before his court appearance....

Deputy sheriff's need to ensure that the defendant was allowed to change into civilian attire if ordered by a judge before being transported to court....

Deputy sheriff's need to ensure that the defendant received his state mandated nutritional and hot breakfast meal before his court appearance...

Deputy sheriff's need to ensure that the defendant has a lunch meal packed and ready to go to court with him....

Deputy sheriff's need to ensure that the defendant will have a dinner meal ready to him when he returns from court...

Deputy sheriff's need to ensure that the defendant is moved around inside the jail to the court transport bus in accordance with rules and regulations that protect the inmate's safety and security...

Deputy sheriff's need to ensure that the defendant is placed into a holding cell that has a certain sized bench to sit on and a required amount of natural light shining into the cell and that the cell is not overcrowded with other inmates...

Deputy sheriff's need to ensure that the defendant is seated properly inside the court transfer bus and kept safe and secure during transport to and from court...

Deputy sheriff's need to ensure that the court orders issued by the judge are taken from the courthouse and to the jail so that the inmate is properly accounted for and afforded whatever rules the judge has issued...

Jubal, the point is that deputy sheriff's comply with hundreds of thousands of rules every single day to ensure that inmates get their proper administration of justice.

The duties of the deputy sheriff's are taken for granted by the Board of Supervisors even though they claim to be for safe communities.

Deputy sheriff's keep communities safe.

Late arriving inmates don't.

Deputy sheriff's who only ask for a labor contract that fairly considers their dedication and committment to public safety.

Murder defendants could care less.

Too bad you can't see that!

Flowerszzz

Much like the military, I appreciate each and every officer and thank them for their service to this country. You become a Sheriff or in law enforcement officer not because of the pay, but because of the job, the thrill. Much like teachers, who become teachers because it is their calling. I am disappointed that the sheriffs would risk public safety and cost the taxpayers more money in a work slow down, rather then just do their jobs and continue to negotiate outside their employment hours.

disgusted by

Hey ricco -

Way to take that bully mentality that gives every cop a bad name.

Here's how the world works: Salary set for job. People who want job consider job demands, benefits and salary. People take job.

The employers pay according to what they can afford and to balance the quality of the labor they want to attract.

As someone noted, OC is very safe, so apparently the salary is attracting, AND KEEPING, the properly qualified employee.

I get so tired of cops saying "yea, who you going to call when you need help?" Hey, it's your job to come when I need help. You volunteered for that.

I've been lucky, I've never called 911. I do need my trash picked up every week, however, so should a garbage man make more than you?

Again, as someone else also said, if you don't like the salary and benefits, find a job you feel pays you what you're worth.

Green Machine

Flowerszzz,

How long should they negotiate for? Their contract expired a year ago. They've been negotiating for almost a year and a half. Until last week the county didn't even "negotiate". They stonewalled and they asked AOCDS to give up benefits. The county's so called negotiator was really just a messenger who would leave negotiations to pass potential offers up to his superiors. Nothing can get done that way. In essence the county has been stalling negotiations in hopes of wearing the deputies down. Not only is that shameful, but it violates standard negotiating laws.

A poster who wrote after you suggested that the deputies should live up to the pay and benefits that they signed up for. Thats all fine and well....in fact that's what they deputies are saying. Its the county who wants to go back and change what the deputies signed up for.

Joh Moorlach wants to rescind previous benefits. He also wants to take back the deputies' medical benefits trust fund. Which is beyond stupid. The deputies and the county pay into a trust fund, which pays for medical benefits. AOCDS pays less for medical benefits than the average county employee. They are a younger group as a whole and therefore garner lower rates. Furthermore the county pays less into the deputies medical benefits than the other county employees. In essence the deputies do it cheaper than the county...yet Moorlach wants to control it. Quite frankly its all about politics.

Sooner or later the deputies had to stand up. For the record, the "work to rule" is not a "sit around and do nothing". In fact, in many instances it creates more work. The deputies are used to being understaffed and cut corners all the time. This work to rule really underscores how much they circumvent SOP to get the job done.

Flowerszzz

Green - they are paid well. There is no shortage of officers that i am aware of...correct me if I am wrong. Is it enough for their sacrifice...probably not. I do not pretend to know all the ins and outs of the Moorlach debate.

Green Machine

Flowerszzz,

The OCSD is on a huge hiring push. Recent academy graduations have made a small dent, but there are well over 200 vacancies.

Law enforcement across the entire State is involved in a hiring push. In fact, there are so few qualified (and interested) candidates that departments are offering a recruitment bonus to current peace officers to lateral to their agency. And sadly some are starting to take the bait. Our jail deputies are most vulnerable to leaving. They see that the county is attempting to reneg on past promises and the future looks bleak.

When I came to OCSD it was the pride of Orange Count Law Enforcement. I still believe it is, but its becoming increasingly difficult to convince young deputies to stay and keep it that way. I came to this department even though I had an offer from another local agency. In retrospect I could have made more if I had gone the other way, but I don't regret it. I love the OCSD. It is my family and I would (and have) risked my life for it and the community that I serve. It pains me to see the current strife and misery that exists as a result these negotiations.

Supervisor Moorlach has painted us as thugs and many of the posters who write their opinions refer to us as greedy ingrates. Nothing could be further from the truth. As we speak, deputies throughout the department are working to collect money for the united way. They volunteer for the Make a Wish foundation, they purchase hundreds of gifts for needy children and seniors at Christmas, and I could go on and on.

These men and women are some of the best peopel I have ever met and I am proud to be associated with them. Unfortunately ugly politics and Politicians with personal agendas have needlesly caused this issue to deteriorate to its current level. Hopefully it won't last much longer...but I'm not holding my breath.

Flowerszzz

I hope this is resolved quickly. A member of my family is in the explorer program and I am proud! I have much love for the Sheriffs, the AOCDS et al. I just dont want to see public safety at risk is all.

Green Machine

I understand your concerns and you have my promise that I will not risk public safety.

Court Employee

I work in the court system, not a Sheriff, and I can assure you, the Sheriffs are sworn to protect the public and that hasn't stopped just because of this slowdown. Notice you haven't heard about murderers and rapists being released as the result of this, and they absolutely will not let that happen.
The murder trial that made all the news because of a brief delay was resolved in the afternoon by a plea of guilty -- yes, the murderer was brought over in a timely fashion. The press and, unfortunately, Jubal don't care to dig and find out about all the murder cases that still proceeded in many courts the days of the slowdown.
During the various slowdown days, the more professional judges did what they could to make the best of a difficult situation. The judges who are merely worried about how they would look publicly and politically strutted around barking orders, and other judges just complained because they had to stay a couple of hours past 5:00 -- forget about all the times they left at 3:00. But the courts stayed open, people worked together, and the cases were handled.
No one is concerned about the generous retirement package the Board of Supervisors voted in for themselves as they are fighting to take away what has already been voted in for the law enforcement personnel. I'll also bet the Board is enjoying their car allowance and huge salary. It sure is nice that Supervisor Nguyen gets to have her own office away from the other Board members, and it sure is thoughtful of the taxpayers to pick up that $5,000 a month bill.
Of course, all this spending is after they all paid how much to revamp their offices, including installing flat screen TV's at the cost of a few thousand dollars per TV. Isn't it time for whoever is overseeing the Board to do their job and actually rein them in?
I think even people in the private sector would be really upset if the person or group who is in charge of their pay, benefits and retirement were to tell you you were going to get one thing one day and then the next say, no, we changed our mind, we're not gonna agree to that and we're now going to take away what we agreed on before. And that's what's been going on for the last year -- no contract for the people you rely on to protect your family and the courts and no good faith negotiations, just game playing on the Board of Supervisors' part (also something it seems the Register and Jubal don't care to dig into or write about).
As Ready to Pull the Plug posted, I find it very sad that everyone in this county will support other groups who strike or take a job action when they feel they are not getting what they deserve, but the Sheriffs, who go to work knowing that each day could be their last, are supposed to go to work and just take whatever they get, die young, and be happy about it. Sure, they did choose that profession, because they wanted to help. And now look at the support they're getting from those who will probably need their help some day and who are hoping it's a hightly qualified person who drives up in the unit, not someone off the set of Reno 911. And that's exactly who you'll get if Moorlach gets his way, because all the highly-qualified Sheriffs will go to departments in other cities or counties where they are more appreciated. Orange County will ultimately be paying for the training of new recruits and only the ones that can't possibly get hired by better jurisdictions will stay here.
But don't worry, Green Machine, your Explorer is in a great program and the Orange County Sheriffs Dept. will not risk the public safety, no matter what propaganda Moorlach and Norby want to use the press and Red OC to spread.
Register and Jubal, you've both been the perfect pawns for Moorlach and Norby. Congratulations.

The Court Employee explained the Deputies point of view very well and I will give you a lot of credit for putting up with the judge's BS every day.

It is amazing how these judges have reacted after working late a few days. Some of the court Deputies work into their lunch hours without notice and these same judges could care less. The Deputies work over every night to ensure that the criminals are well taken care of. During these work to rule days, I have lost the little respect I had for these arrogant pompous asses. Don't get me wrong there are some very good hard working judges, but the arrogant ones give you all a bad name.

As one judge put it, "The Sheriff's Department is dead as far as I am concerned". That's quiet a statement about an agency, who's Deputies will risk their lives without notice for these same judges. These judges should remember the impression they are giving to these young Deputies that they will work with for the next 25 to 30 years.

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