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August 21, 2007

Comments

antony cooke

Another 'unbiased' assessment, but should we be surprised?

The Republican Party should be ashamed of itself. Not only is it trying to stifle discourse and railroad its pet high-paying candidate through the process, but it allowed itself to be used to perpetrate false information about Harkey’s fundraiser on the voters. If it was not aware of the lie, it should have repudiated Harkey and her group of deceivers. Otherwise one could only assume the party itself was in on the deception as well.

Now what kind of message does this send to the voters? It’s no wonder so many of us have contempt for the big political machines, whose only purpose is to push their chosen game players down our throats: “Don’t confuse the little people with anything other than the party line”. But rest assured, I’m not buying it and will not vote for someone else’s choice.

Jubal

Another 'unbiased' assessment, but should we be surprised?

Antony:

Do you think this helps your side?

Secondly, this blog has never claimed to be unbiased. Ever. I'm amazed anyone still hurls that charge in our direction.

Not only is it trying to stifle discourse...

The OC GOP putting its two cents into the discourse stifles that discourse?

Art Pedroza

They thought Carona was spiffy too. Several mobsters later...not so spiffy.

it should be obvious

Of course the party will support Harkey. Have you seen her list of endorsements?

They have no choice.

DP Resident

Great! Once again Harkey has to bend the rules to win. Didn't she have the full support of the OC GOP when she ran against Harman? Wasn't the OC GOP just bailed out of debt? Are they going to keep supporting the same candidates that put them in the hole? What is she going to do against the big "D" machine when she gets to Sacramento?

It is amazing how one minute she ties to play the tough politician, and he next she is poor woman being attacked. Make up your mind! She even has her daughter trying to defend her in the local paper.

All this stress must be getting to her. Just watched her on TV during the latest Council meeting..... she's looked better.

Just Me

"Just watched her on TV during the latest Council meeting..... she's looked better."

For being so negative against Harkey, she must have done excellent to only make this comment. It would appear the antagonist failed to provoke her on her home court. But that's just me.

Jubal

She even has her daughter trying to defend her in the local paper. All this stress must be getting to her. Just watched her on TV during the latest Council meeting..... she's looked better.

Are you taking satisfaction in that?

Fact Checker

DP Resident, it was the CA GOP who was got bailed out. No wonder this recall attempt has failed so many times, apparently the DP Residents in favor have reading comprehension problems futher than city recall ordinances.

DP Resident

Fact Checker,

We all bow before your powers of recall and defense of the truth.

Now if you can turn you considerable abilities to some of the comments Harkey has made on the record, and confirm or deny them.

The infamous City Council meeting that Harkey walked out of - what she said may be in question, but she DID walk out. Once outside she accused those inside of being Harmon supporters out to discredit her before the election...... Was her statement true or false?

I'm sure her decision to walk had nothing to do with the fact she was sure she was going to beat Harmon the following week. EVERYBODY thought she would win.

Jubal,

"Are you taking satisfaction in that?"

No, just observing. I am sure that the movement to Recall Harkey, and people such as me commenting are not the sole cause of Hareky's woes. I also assume you take no satisfaction when you see people who oppose you looking a little worse for wear and tear.

One Who Knows

DP Resident and other Lacyites:

I have been so appalled by your incessant trashing of Diane Harkey that I Googled the term "Intellectually-honest and intellectually-dishonest debate tactics " and found a wonderful post at www.johntreed.com/debate.html

As you might guess, so far it appears that you and your cohorts have used just about every one of the so-called intellectually dishonest tactics during this debate.

Below is just a sample. I suspect that you can learn some additional dishonest tactics by logging on the cite yourself:

1. Name calling: debater tries to diminish the argument of his opponent by calling the opponent a name that is subjective and unattractive
2. Changing the subject: debater is losing so he tries to redirect the attention of the audience to another subject area where he thinks he can look better relative to the person he is debating
3. Questioning the motives of the opponent: this is a form of tactic number 2 changing the subject; as stated above, it is prohibited by Robert’s Rule of Order 43; a typical tactic use against critics is to say, “They’re just trying to sell newspapers”
4. Citing irrelevant facts or logic: this is another form of tactic Number 2 changing the subject
5. False premise: debater makes as statement that assumes some other fact has already been proven when it has not.
6. Hearsay: debater cites something he heard but has not confirmed through his own personal observation or research from reliable sources
7. Unqualified expert opinion: debater gives or cites an apparently expert opinion which is not from a qualified expert.
11. Vagueness: debater seems to cite facts or logic, but his terms are so vague that no facts or logic are present
15. Scapegoating: debater blames problems on persons other than the audience; this is a negative version of playing on widely-held fantasies; it plays on widely-held animosities or dislikes
17. Redefining words: debater uses a word that helps him, but that does not apply, by redefining it to suit his purposes.

I can't wait to see where you guys go next.

Flowerszzz

I love how DP and others just glaze over the fact that their slogan is Ethics Matter and they lied about the main reason they are recalling her....the F bomb.

DP - pretty much everything you have stated on this blog and others has been proven false. Whenever you post it takes like 2 seconds to prove you wrong so no one takes you seriously anymore. You are starting to sound like Pedroza (hmmmm) with all your parajitos giving you bad info.

Just Me

Dear DP Resident -

I feel left out. I can beleive Harkey walked out and called the hecklers Harmon
supporters. But now you want to change the focus from inside chambers to outside chambers, which wasn't an issue before. But what she said is no longer "in question." Another recall supporter has confessed it was his wife who did the swearing on tape. So it looks like it was a setup to harass with hecklers, video tape and microphones and not to present issues.

In another post, K. Wilson said he was tired of the lies and deceit of Harkey. But here I see you doing it. So who do I believe?

I just expect that when a person has a week issue that they don't embellish it just to make it stick. But then that's just me.

fact checker

DP Resident, I dont recall talking about Harkeys actions at a meeting in which I was not present I do recall pointing out your lack of reading comprehension skills on a one paragraph post from last week, and your ill-guided attack on the OC GOP and its donors.

Jim Lacy

Look, the fact is Harkey has no provable history of supporting the Republican Party or conservative cause before 2004, when she first ran for office. Check the FPPC and FEC records. She is just trying to buy an Assembly seat, like Christy Christich did, a "Republican for Clinton." And perhaps some of the anonymous comments herein come from people on the gravu train, or who would like to be. For people like me, who have been working at supporting conservative causes and the Party since the 60s, the Harkey supporters on this blog are just a joke.

On the Gravy Train

"Look, the fact is Harkey has no provable history of supporting the Republican Party or conservative cause before 2004, when she first ran for office. Check the FPPC and FEC records. She is just trying to buy an Assembly seat..."

Finally, after all this, we get the truth as to why Lacy wants to recall Harkey!

DP Resident

To Harkey's Harpies - just following One Who Knows' example of naming the group "Lacyites"

Many of the complaints OWK listed are similar to ones I've brought up in the past:

Name calling

Attacking the Messenger

Changing the subject

The following is a list of issues, many of which I have brought up,a I believe no one has disproved that involve Harkey:

1 - She minimal involvement in politics during the five years before her run for the DP City Council;

2 - That she aligned herself with the "malcontents" in town while attacking the local developers and the Republican Mayor (a former Col. in the USMC); these same supporters are the people who are now in the recall group;

3 - That she lied to the press about the amount she spent during her campaign for the council. In a town where candidates spend about $15-30,000 it was reported that she and Lara Anderson together spent $40,000. Harkey actually spent closer to $180,000;

4 - During her campaign she stated she would not seek higher office. In less than 9 months she was running for the State Senate.

5 - For all those praising Harkey as a brilliant politician, what exactly has she done to warrant your praise - Beside the fact she helped a former Democratic Central Committee member get elected to the council in Dana Point?

Lumped in with Lacyites? I've been critical of Lacy trying to cut a deal with Harkey while he was on the council. I could have told him she could not be trusted, and would knife him in the back first chance she got. I do appreciate that Lacy has a documented record of working for Republican causes while Harkey was supporting Republicans for Clinton. Harkey can't even come up with a decent, detailed work Resume to back up her "Retired Banker" title. A title the City of DP would not accept on her candidate statement when she ran.

Fact Checker -

Neither you nor I claim you did.... but when you post as FACT CHECKER, I just assumed you would live up to your name.

Flowerszzz

Dp - while you listed some reasons to be discontent with her, I still see nothing that makes her unethical.

#1 - Many people have NO experience when they first run for office.
#2 - while it is not nice to attack other candidates - it is certainly not agains the law.
#3 - how did she lie? Did she file false campaign statements? Now that would be an ethics matter. But if she told the press something...I would like to see the proof of that.
#4 - while not a great thing to do....unfortuantely MANY officeholders do this.
#5 - I for one have never praised her....I just want to know the recall facts. I am not interested in all the he said she said rumors.

DP Resident

#1 - She claims a long history of involvement, but can't back it up. Like her "Banker" title, she uses these as part of her qualifications, but has failed to document them in any way that can be verified.

#2 - It's more about irony and honesty - she and her supporters are complaining about the same tactics SHE used to get elected - use the local "malcontents" to attack the mayor.

#3 - Look for an article published the day after the election entitled "Small Potatoes" (OCR). That is where the $40,000/$20,000 number coes from.

#4 - Another example of her dishonesty. If she can't document any experience (see #1) does she really thing a few months on the DP City Council qualified her for the State Senate? What has she done to qualify for the State Assembly.

#5 - Thanks for your honesty. I have asked this question before, and about the best her supporters usually come up with is that she is a "Great Campaigner". One even referred to her as "Brilliant" without ever describing why. I know VERY few politician that even come close to brilliant. For my part I will not deny that she campaigns hard and is willing to spend whatever it takes to win. The problem is, getting elected is only part of the job. Where has she shown she is any good at getting anything accomplished? When has she worked to bring people together? The staff at the City, which some of her supports give her credit for, was basically what was in place before she showed up.

She stared her political life as a dishonest candidate, and remains so to this day. The sooner she is gone from our city, the better. If that means getting rid of her by promoting her, consider yourself warned.

One Who Knows

The hissing sound you hear from Dana Point is the air rapidly coming out of the Recall Harkey balloon.

DP Resident is desperately trying to keep it pumped up, but everyone else appears to be long gone.

To his credit, Mr. Lacy told us what the recall was about when he wrote above:

"Look, the fact is Harkey has no provable history of supporting the Republican Party or conservative cause before 2004, when she first ran for office. Check the FPPC and FEC records. She is just trying to buy an Assembly seat."

Apparently Ms. Harkey did not contribute to Mr. Lacy's most recent campaign for State Assembly (which occurred before 2004) and she has too much money for him to run against her for the seat next year.

So let's just recall the old bat!

It will be interesting to see how Mayor Harkey handles the situation.

Will she put a sword into Jim Lacy's throat now that he's down? I hope not.

Be magnanimous in victory, Diane. Jim is a long time political servant with lots of friends throughout the county (and the country.) Many of his friends disagreed with the recall attempt, but we remain his friends, nevertheless.

Ask Jim out to lunch. Just you and him...no staff. Invite him to join your campaign as a co-chairman. Be gracious

Jim has a lot to offer. Find something meaningful for him to do. No quid-pro-quo, of course, but put him on the Planning Commission or some such thing. Maybe he can get back on the Council when you leave for Sacramento.

The recall is over. Now let's begin the healing.


Flowerszzz

Dp - I respect your reasons for not liking her but IMO those reasons are weak and certainly would not convince me that she need to be recalled. It still see nothing that makes her unethical....who knows maybe shen she talked to the press at that time she had only spent what she said. And many who run for office have no experience...so I just don't get your point.

I get that you do not like her....but IMO you are gonna have to do better then that to be successfull in your recall attempt.

DP Resident

Flow -

Not enough reason to recall her? She has a pattern of lying and shirking responsibility, but lets reward her by electing her to Assembly???? The "Small Potatoes" article was published the day AFTER the election. If Hakery thought she had spent $20,000 when she had really spent $180,000 what kind of manager does that make her? You think a REAL banker would have tighter control of the money.

Don't know how many time I can go over the experience thing. It is not that she did not have experience when she ran, it is that she claimed she did. Isn't that kind of like lying on your resume? Same thing with her vague claims about her vast Banking Experience, with no details to back it up.

I love Harkey Harpies like One Who Know. Don't let issues or facts get in the way of attacking the messenger(s). How about some intelligent input on the points Flo and I have been kicking back and forth?

One Who Knows

"How about some intelligent input on the points Flo and I have been kicking back and forth?"

DP Resident...first of all I am glad that you are sitting at your computer rather than in front of Alberson's getting rained on. But, that notwithstanding, you don't seem to understand that as the proponent, it is YOUR JOB to convince us of the merits of YOUR recall. Is is NOT up to us to have any input, intelligent or otherwise, The burden of proof is 100% on you and you have failed miserably to state a cause of action for recall.

Plus...don't forget that Jim Lacy gave us the REAL reason for the recall. That is Ms. Harkey did not contribute to his campaign when he ran for the Assembly prior to 2004 and she has too much money for him to run against her for the seat next year.

Yours and his complaints against Diane may be very legitimate reasons to oppose her election, but they fall woefully short of any legitimate reasons for a recall.

It's time to give up the ghost. Your recall is totally inappropriate.

DP Resident

One - you are half way there, but once again you are hedging your bet. The reasons I stated - Are they or are they not legitimate enough to oppose Harkey running for the State Assembly.

As far as failing, in response to questions here why I oppose her I have stated what I believe are legitimate reason to recall Harkey and oppose her election to the Assembly. If you want to ignore these reasons while continuing to blindly support Harkey on this forum, then I believe you are being intellectually dishonest, and are working from a morally bankrupt position.

You state that Lacy is getting back at Harkey for his failed Assembly bid? If so, why did he back her for the State Assembly, which occurred after he lost?

The recall "inappropriate"? The top two reasons listed for recalling Gray Davis were his lying to the people of California.

http://www.recallgraydavis.com/FiveReasons.asp

As far as where I am when I am writing this....there is a little thing called a Wireless Internet Connection.... all it takes is a Blackberry, iPhone, or laptop. It is amazing where one can be while still posting

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