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July 30, 2007

Comments

The truth hurts Quint

John Moorlach is right on in leading this charge on behalf of the taxpayers against a greedy bunch of cry-baby bullies on the board at AOCDS. Quint's tired old song,

" It is disturbing to our organization and to our members that Supervisor Moorlach and the county seem not to value the sacrifices that the men and women of the Orange County Sheriff’s Department and Orange County District Attorney’s Office have made and continue to make on a daily basis,"

is just that - tired and old!

What's "disturbing" is that Quint and his bullies think they can have whatever they want whenever they want - no wonder he and Carona get along so well... I'm tired of these special interest groups tugging at our heart strings while picking our pockets!

It's time for some fiscal responsibility around here. Hopefully, Bill Campbell has the integrity to help undue what he contributed to the first time. Hopefully, Pat Bates and Janet Nguyen will show some real courage and do the right thing by voting with John Moorlach on this. We must send a solid message to all government employee unions who have the "entitlement to our tax dollars" mentality - NO MORE, NOT IN ORANGE COUNTY. Go bankrupt L.A. if you must, but no more fiscal irresponsibility in the O.C.

The deputies must remind themselves that they are taxpayers first like the rest of us. They also need to pay attention to their own house, AOCDS, and put that in order with Quint's out-of-control spending of their hard-earned dues. Put that man back in the jail where he belongs and get some ethical leadership. Then come talk to honorable men like John Moorlach, who has a solid track record of looking out for the best interest of the residents of O.C.

Until then, accept the fact that you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar and now you have to answer for your actions.

A.I.B.

if the courts disagree with Moorlach, after the county spends millions in litigation, which is very likely, how will the lost of tax payer dollars be recouped?

if the courts agree with Moorlach, after the county spends millions in litigation, which is very unlikely, how will the lost of tax payer dollars be recouped?

if it was about saving tax payer dollars then there are much better ways to negotiate it that do not involve the need to pay litigation fees

how much money will be paid to lawyers fighting for/against this latest supervisor boondoggle, money that could have been put to so many other beneficial uses.

and it all boils down to egos, and Moorlach has one of the biggest around, he has made it clear for a long time he is a sore winner, and vindictive.

Funny, if he had lost there would be no lawsuit, no lost tax payer monies, and more attention to the real needs of the county.

The LA times story is right on:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/orange/la-me-moorlach30jul30,1,454427.story?coll=la-editions-orange

O.C. supervisor still locked in battle with deputies
Pension is the main issue in a fight that is increasingly personal and growing.

"Moorlach said he expected the union to come after him, but the campaign rhetoric went too far. "They warned me, 'You're going to have to run the gantlet.' It was no surprise for me and no surprise for them. It kind of went over the top.""

So, when does it stop? When the tax payers wake up and realize they can not afford politicians who engage in personal fights over their battered egos, and kick them out on their ears.

The funding of pensions will not cause bankruptcies like the one the BOS did in '94, cause the issue is future funding not curretn borrowing, and has many solutions, but that won't get votes, only misdirection gets votes


Jubal

Well, Judge AIB, from where do you gain your psychic insight into the minds of jurists who haven't even heard the arguments on either side?

A.I.B.

Sorry not a judge, having watched litigation for 50 years though, the only winners will be the lawyers.

But I can read, and I can understand what I read, and from what I have read that Moorlach et all have said, is that it is a 'probability' that a law was broken, even they are not sure. And reading their justifications it is clear that there is no sure win for them, and in fact it is very doubtful based on their facts and case law presented.

Only a real judge will make the decisions after both sides pound out tons of paper and past precedents, and case histories. How long will it be in court? 5-10-15-20 years? And at what cost? millions for sure -- just how many millions is not.

Just what will the taxpayers get out of this? will taxes be lowered? will refunds be issued? will any money be saved? will they get better service? if it drags past 7 years, which is normal for most litigation, Moorlach will not be a supervisor any more, due to term limits. And they whole fiasco will be lost on the population, because they will not remember why or what caused the whole thing to begin with.

If as it is be contended, that is was un-constitutional, will there be warrants and criminal complaints against those who violated the law? will someone go to jail? and if not, why not? The entire basis's of the complaint is that it was un-constitutional, now the deputies cannot be held accountable for it, for they have no power to approve, they can only request for benefits, but the Supervisors who passed it can be and should be, will they go to jail? will they be tried and convicted since it would have been a crime to do what they did, if it is proved to be un-constitutional.

The deputies might lose some benefits, but if the law was broken, then someone has to go to jail, and that would be those who broke the law.

Green Machine

Mr. Moorlach utilizes a formula that assumes a retired deputy will live until age 80. I'd like to know if he has consulted anyone that has done a life expectancy study for a law enforcement officer. I'm willing to bet that the actual number is significantly lower than 80. A simple google search will provide a listing of information that indicates Moorlach's numbers are way off. So why the number 80? Well my guess is that it provides Moorlach with the statistical data he needs to make his argument. The premise is flimsy and typical of his propoganda. I've seen enough anecdotal evidence to back this up. Sadly enough, the OCSD just put out a notice that a sergeant who retired last year (2006) has passed away. You might think it to be the exception. But those of us who have been around for a few years know better.

As for Moorlach's assertion that he was "jumped" at a restaurant. Please...I saw the photo. A deputy sheriff put his hand out, in a gesture of civility. Moorlach's arms are folded in an apparent refusal to shake hands. Not only is that childish, but demonstrative of how personal he has made this endeavor.

re Green Machine

"A simple google search will provide a listing of information that indicates Moorlach's numbers are way off. So why the number 80?"

A simple search of what? What exactly are we to type in the box? Actuary tables used by life insurance companies all reflect higher life expectancy values which is what I suppose Moorlach was using as well. The man is a CPA and a CFP so he does know what he's talking about. Just because some cops die sooner than others is no reason for us to support bad fiscal decisions like 3 at 50 - that's a real weak argument. I could say the same for any profession.

I agree with the 1st poster - I'm tired of these special interest groups tugging at our heart strings while picking our pockets! I also agree with A.I.B - those Supervisors who voted for 3 at 50 should go to jail for 10 years or more. This crap has got to stop.

re Green Machine

"A simple google search will provide a listing of information that indicates Moorlach's numbers are way off. So why the number 80?"

A simple search of what? What exactly are we to type in the box? Actuary tables used by life insurance companies all reflect higher life expectancy values which is what I suppose Moorlach was using as well. The man is a CPA and a CFP so he does know what he's talking about. Just because some cops die sooner than others is no reason for us to support bad fiscal decisions like 3 at 50 - that's a real weak argument. I could say the same for any profession.

I agree with the 1st poster - I'm tired of these special interest groups tugging at our heart strings while picking our pockets! I also agree with A.I.B - those Supervisors who voted for 3 at 50 should go to jail for 10 years or more. This crap has got to stop.

A.I.B.

Having had time to read up a bit and do a little searching I have found several places indicating that the number one reason being submitted to the un-constitutional action (debt limitation) by the previous BOS is not as solid as might appear: (as has been stated it is a un-funded liability - that is not a debt - it is a potential debt of unknow size due to so many factors as to make them quess at the amount of 100 to 300 million - but the amount in the first year was set at 49 million snd then paid for in that year)

One major basis upon which to find the voter requirement inapplicable is where the debt is contingent upon the happening of some event. "A sum payable upon a contingency is not a debt, nor does it become a debt until the contingency happens." (Doland v. Clark (1904) 143 Cal. 176, 181; accord, American Co. v. City of Lakeport (1934) 220 Cal. 548, 557; see Bickerdike v. State (1904) 145 Cal. 682, 695-697; McBean v. City of Fresno (1896) 112 Cal. 159, 168; 58 Ops.Cal.Atty.Gen. 691, 695 (1975).) The rationale for the
contingent debt exception was stated in Municipal Debt, supra, pp. 649-650:
"Until the occurrence of the condition precedent to an obligation, it is not certain that a local entity will in fact have to pay it. There is no sense in treating an obligation as a debt until the occurrence of the condition. Real needs may go unmet in order to preserve sufficient revenues for the repayment of a debt that may never become due. Voter approval of a contingent obligation is misleading and may well prove to be a useless act if the contingency fails to occur. Therefore, the obligation should be treated as a debt only
when the need for payment is certain."
*4 Another significant exception to the voter approval requirement is where the liability is found to be divisible into annual parts with each payment due only for the consideration received during the particular year. (See Starr v. City and County of San Francisco, supra, 72 Cal.App.3d 164, 172-174; County of Sacramento v. Assessment Appeals Bd.
No. 2 (1973) 32 Cal.App.3d 654, 668; Joint Powers Authority, supra, p. 22.)

and

Under the "special fund" doctrine, the voter requirement will be found inapplicable where
the debt is not a legally enforceable obligation against the local government's general
funds or taxing power. (See California Housing Agency v. Elliott (1976) 17 Cal.3d 575,
587-588; California Educational Facilities Authority v. Priest (1974) 12 Cal.3d 593, 607;
City of Palm Springs v. Ringwald, supra, 52 Cal.2d 620, 624-626; City of Oxnard v. Dale
(1955) 45 Cal.2d 729, 737; The Housing Authority v. Dockweiler (1939) 14 Cal.2d 437,
460; Department of Water, etc. v. Vroman (1933) 218 Cal. 206, 216; San Francisco
Sulphur Co. v. County of Contra Costa (1929) 207 Cal. 1, 5; Shelton v. City of Los
Angeles (1929) 206 Cal. 544, 551; Board of Supervisors v. Dolan, supra, 45 Cal.App.3d
237, 248-249; City of Glendale v. Chapman (1951) 108 Cal.App.2d 74, 76.) The rationale
for the doctrine is that where the local government's "credit [is] not involved in the
incurring of the indebtedness" (Mesmer v. Board etc. (1913) 23 Cal.App. 578, 583) and
the debt will not effect an increase in property taxes or threaten foreclosure upon
government property, the debt is outside the scope of the constitutional provision (see
City of Redondo Beach v. Taxpayers, Property Owners, etc., City of Redondo Beach,
supra, 54 Cal.2d 126, 131; County of Shasta v. County of Trinity, supra, 106 Cal.App.3d
30, 36; Starr v. City and County of San Francisco, supra, 72 Cal.App.3d 164, 176; Board
of Supervisors v. Dolan, supra, 45 Cal.App.3d 237, 249; Municipal Debt, supra, p. 655;
Joint Powers Authority, supra, pp. 25-26, 33).

Cops Die Young

The Law Enforcement Wellness Association has assembled an internationally prominent faculty of professionals dedicated to the overall physical and psychological health of the nation's law enforcement personnel.

The law enforcement profession is becoming more complex and stressful as we enter the 21st century. Solid research has shown the life expectancy, after retirement, of a police officer is much shorter than that of the the general population. The suicide rate, divorce rate, and a host of other health related issues, including alcohol abuse, is much higher for police officers than the current national averages. The reasons for these problems are many, complex and varied. Unique occupational stresses: shift work, sleep deprivation, critical incident exposure, cumulative and organizational stress, and leadership issues all play a part. Lack of proper diet and exercise coupled with the many stresses of the job is a disasterous recipe often ending in premature death, or a life which, at best, may be categorized as "non-wellness". Family issues also play a major role in the overall health and wellbeing of a law enforcement officer. The attitude, health and emotional stability of the law enforcement officer affects the harmony, or lack of harmony, in an officer's home. Children, spouses and significant others are all victims of crippling job stress.

Cops Die Young

Why all the fuss about heart disease? It's the number one killer of all adult Americans. Why should we, as police officers and law enforcement professionals, be concerned? Well, heart disease is the single greatest cause of early retirement and the second greatest cause of limited duty assignments in your agency.1 Heart disease attacks our men and women in blue at significantly higher rates than the general public. In North Carolina, the rate of heart disease for officers is 35% greater than for the general population.2 As a matter of fact, the life expectancy for a police officer is 15 years less than the average American3, and nationally, 50% of all police officers will die from heart disease within five years of retirement.

Cops Die Young

Most officers experience at least one divorce in their career. Suicide rate among police officers rate about second in the nation annually on a consistent basis, and the average life expectancy for a police officer in the United States is 55 years.

re Cops Die Young

Cops Die Young,

And your point?...

Statistics show that if your parents didn't have children, you won't either. But that's still no reason to approve 3 at 50. It's simply an irresponsible and unjustifiable mis-appropriation of taxpayer dollars to overpay individuals of a VOLUNTARY profession simply because they're spoon fed by full-time lobbyists in thier unions and associations. Grow up and act like a real cop, or get another job if more money is all you care about.

Jim

All you cops are whiny babies.
I'm positive you all know what Moorlach is doing the right thing, you're just too ignorant to except it.
Grow up and just do your job.

ocwatcher

I never understood why the agreement would be retroactive. If deputies were hired at a certain rate and benefit package and worked those hours at that rate and benefit package, the agreement on both sides is met.

If a new package needs to be negotiated to keep good workers and attract new ones, it has nothing to do with previous service.

So a package designed because cops/firefighters have such dangerous, competitive, whatever jobs, soon becomes the standard for parks employees and school district secretaries, while public safety folks push on to even more lucrative packages.

Additionally, the problem with contracts like this is that safety pushes the envelope, and other unions soon follow.

And so the cycle continues.

Here's why

For several years. I don't recall how many. We accepted low and no pay increase and contributed additional dollars into the retirement system as a part of our contract for 3 @ 50. It just wasn't given to us. Had the county not provided this benefit we would have taken larger wage increases. I did voluntarily accept this job but I expect to be paid for it. As 21 year old it was a fun and exciting life. Now at 40+ I have had friends murdered, crippled, maimed.Not to mention my injuries over the years. I have missed out on a great part of my kids. My relationship with my wife is strained. It is a part of the job. Now that I know what this job really does to a person you'd better believe I deserve my benefits. The office boys like Norby and Moorloch have no clue.

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