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November 02, 2005

Comments

MrWhipple

John Seiler, over on the OC Register's blog, has the best suggestion on what Arnold should do if 74-77 lose:

If a new Field Poll is right, and Arnold loses on his four reform initiatives, he should respond by quitting. The voters will have spoken. Then, Lt. Gov. Cruz "Tough Love for California" Bustamante would become governor, impose his $10 billion tax increase on the state and sign into law all his fellow Democrats' anti-business and anti-sanity bills. The state economy would slide into the Pacific Ocean while Arnold, retired to Hawaii, relaxes and puffs stogies while chuckling, "I won't be back."

If California voters are so stupid that they can't see through the lies of the politicians and union bosses, then give them what they want and let them suffer.

Me? I'm already looking at property out of state.

Jason

Me? I'm already looking at property out of state.

Ditto. Just waiting for the job thing to come around - should be sometime in Q1 2006.

Jason

A comment on talk.ocregister.com reminded me of the strong effect that absentee ballots had on the 48th primary, and the strong emphasis the Campbell campaign put on them. I'm curious to see how those will affect the Props., and I wonder what effect the absentee voters have on the polls. If you've already voted absentee if/when you're contacted, are you still included as a "likely voter" or excluded 'cause you already voted? One thing's for sure: this one's gonna be interesting next Tuesday...

I wish I had John Seiler's crystal ball. Even if his worst case scenario comes about with Arnie resigning, I doubt the state would slide into the ocean.

Those folks over there at the Register just loonier by the moment.

Jason. Write to us and tell us how good it is somewhere else. CA is still where people want to be, everyone sees that but the doom and gloom republicans.

Jason

Jason. Write to us and tell us how good it is somewhere else.

Thanks, I will! I'm looking to buy a house twice as big as mine for cash and have no mortgage payment ever again, while keeping my pay and position by moving to another of my company's offices. No more OC traffic, no more being represented by Boxer/Feinstein, no more worrying about mortgage rates or property prices ever again, and comfortably retired by 55. Sounds great to me, and I guarantee you I'm not the only one thinking about it.

CA is still where people want to be

Tell that to the school districts, whose statewide enrollment shrunk last year for the first time ever.

everyone sees that but the doom and gloom republicans.

I'm a gloom and doom libertarian, thankyouverymuch, who just wants lower taxes, total debt freedom, and a CCW permit. :-D

Allan Bartlett

I have looked at other states to move to, but you just can't beat our weather in California. I think the state is starting to trend a little more Republican too, but I know all about the frustrations that Jason and Mr. Whipple speak of. If prop 75 doesn't pass, the unions will be the de-facto rulers of the state. That's sad.

Powder Blue Report

OC Fire Storm

Glad to see my union PAC money doing some good!

redperegrine

"...and comfortably retired by 55"

And just think! You're not even a County employee!

Jason

you just can't beat our weather in California.

For me, that's one of the last things to consider. Buy hey, different strokes for different folks!

I think the state is starting to trend a little more Republican too, but I know all about the frustrations that Jason and Mr. Whipple speak of.

To be honest, and though it may not seem the case given the thread, the political side of things is less important to me than the other, life-important stuff. To the extent that it does creep in, it manifests itself more in the very personal issues (taxes, gun rights, school vouchers, etc.) than in the abstract (demopublican-republocrat shifts/trends).

"...and comfortably retired by 55"

And just think! You're not even a County employee!

I know, ain't it great!?!? :-D That's the power of gettin' out while the gettin's good.

Hey Jason. Some of us got 15 yr mortgages at 30. Sorry you have to leave the state to own a home outright.

I did it here. I don't need a gun, so I don't need a CCW. And when the GOP puts up a decent candidate, people will have a better choice other than Boxer and Feinstein.

Au revoir.

who just wants lower taxes, total debt freedom, and a CCW permit. :-D

Just pay Corona enough and you'll get your CCW!

Jason

Some of us got 15 yr mortgages at 30. Sorry you have to leave the state to own a home outright. I did it here.

Good for you, congrats! We thought about that too but decided to go the one-income, stay-at-home-mom route when our first was born in March. It's not so much that we have to leave the state to own a home outright, just that we have to leave the state to own a home outright now - taking advantage of the outrageous equity we've built up before values start heading south.

I don't need a gun, so I don't need a CCW.

Again, good for you! Isn't freedom of choice great, being able to decide for yourself whether or not you'd like to own/carry a gun? I certainly don't have any hard feelings towards anyone who chooses not to own one, as long as they allow me to make that choice for myself. As for those folks that don't want to allow me that choice, I'm reminded of the adage that a gun control advocate is just a gun rights advocate that hasn't been mugged/carjacked yet.

when the GOP puts up a decent candidate, people will have a better choice other than Boxer and Feinstein.

I don't know man - given the kinds of things those two have said and done lately, any choice would appear better than them! Judge Jim Gray was my vote last year, sadly to no avail.

MrWhipple

Glad to see my union PAC money doing some good!

And OC Fire Storm gets the award for the most telling comment of the day. Public employee unions hold the title to California. Their right to own the state is what this election is all about.

OCFS and his pro-union buddies see that ownership as a good thing, while the rest of us who are working to pay for his generous salary, benefits, and pension aren't so sure.

Jason

Uh oh, looks like I messed up my bold tag at the end of my post and it's affecting MrWhipple's. Lemme try to turn it off...

Hey mods, go ahead and add a closing tag after "any" in my post to fix MrWhipple's post.

Thanks!

Allan Bartlett

You never know when a gun could come in handy. Look at what happened to that family in Aliso Viejo a few days ago by that deranged teenager. That story might have been different if someone was packing heat. In those situations, dialing 911 isn't going to do you any good.

Powder Blue Report

Jason. You have a right to be a libertarian. It is a free country after all.

But there are so many holes in that ideology you could drive a truck through them.

And most lucid people see them.

Jason

But there are so many holes in that ideology you could drive a truck through them. And most lucid people see them.

But - no don't tell me, let me guess - you've neither the time nor inclination to drive that truck. Am I right? Gee, I haven't heard that one before. The science of debate victory through nonchalant, semi-disgusted egress from the field - masterfully executed, oh nameless one!

If it's so easy, have at it - I'm not made of glass! You might just change my mind, you never know 'till you try! Just make sure you frame your points around the small-l libertarian philosophy rather than the big-L Libertarian Party platform, since both of us have used "libertarian" and neither has used "Libertarian".

bobolink

re: polls turning south... Is the prevailing wisdom that the union commercials are that persuasive? Or is it something else?

My two cent theory is that the voters expected Arnold to be the same cartoon superhero he played on the screen. When they figured out he wasn't, they got ticked. Forgodssake!! He's simply a decent, moderate conservative.

Gee did it take the California public this long to figure out Terminator was just a movie special effect? And don't vote down all his Props just because you're still mad at Mummy and Daddy over that Santa Claus story.

(There's a story how Fred Rogers (Mister Rogers' Neighborhood) used to tell how one day he was speaking to a group of kids, and one kid pipes up and says, "How did you get out of the TV set?" I think those kids grew up and became California voters.)

Jason, reserve me a seat if you're going to McCain's Arizona. And scoot over because we're taking McClintock with us to replace McCain when he wins the White House '08. The voters deserve Bustamante.

Not bashful about pointing the two biggest holes.

First is that everyone is so kind and respectful of others.

The second is there is no protection of intellectual property or innovation.

Let's say I devise the next great computer OS. What's to stop you from copying it and selling it as your own?

OC Fire Storm

And OC Fire Storm gets the award for the most telling comment of the day.

Thanks you, Mr. Whipple. Democracy is a great thing, isn’t? Arnold is trying to shove his props down Californian’s throats and the people aren’t buying it. You’re not giving the voting public enough credit to decide on their own, Mr. Whipple.

PS...You're "OCFS" remark is giving you away.

You said,

If California voters are so stupid that they can't see through the lies of the politicians and union bosses, then give them what they want and let them suffer.

If the polls were leaning the other way and I made the above remark, you’d call me a sore loser or a disgruntled union worker. The people have spoken (well, are speaking/will speak on Tuesday). Apparently you can’t handle the truth.

Me? I'm already looking at property out of state.

Don’t let the door hit you in the *ss on the way out.

OC Fire Storm

And OC Fire Storm gets the award for the most telling comment of the day.

Thanks you, Mr. Whipple. Democracy is a great thing, isn’t? Arnold is trying to shove his props down Californian’s throats and the people aren’t buying it. You’re not giving the voting public enough credit to decide on their own, Mr. Whipple.

PS...Your "OCFS" remark is giving you away.

You said,

If California voters are so stupid that they can't see through the lies of the politicians and union bosses, then give them what they want and let them suffer.

If the polls were leaning the other way and I made the above remark, you’d call me a sore loser or a disgruntled union worker. The people have spoken (well, are speaking/will speak on Tuesday). Apparently you can’t handle the truth.

Me? I'm already looking at property out of state.

Don’t let the door hit you in the *ss on the way out.

anon ii

You know, I don't remember this big uproar about defined benefits several years ago during the tech stock upswing! All the 401K's just swimming in profits, while the county employees just slogged away. I can't count how many snide comments I've gotten on this post about people not getting into firescab or police work because "They couldn't limit themselves to the low income". When I started three decades ago, my retirement was excellent, but the pay sucked. Over the years, we have gotten pay raises, along with increased responsibility, danger, and education. Now with 3@50, I will be joining redperegrine in retirement at a ripe young age, and I will be able to afford to stay in my home state. A decent lifestyle doesn't mean the unions run the state- because of the current poor economy, we're just holding our own. Don't worry, you will all have a shot to get rich and rub our noses in it if and when this economy picks up. Just don't be so blatantly envious!!!!

Blog Watcher

anon. I stated this on Tin Star. You are absolutely correct.

Jason

First is that everyone is so kind and respectful of others.

Ah - the first common misconception about libertarianism. Libertarians don't believe "everyone is so kind and respectful of others". On the contrary, they believe that everyone will always act in their own best interests, and that it's a proper role of the state to protect citizens against the force and fraud of others, but beyond that, to allow people to choose their own courses of action as long as they don't infringe on others. So in that respect, what matters it to me or you whether we are kind and respectful towards each other or not, as long as we allow each other the freedom of our own choices?

A corollary to that is that since those in government are just people, and people always act in their own self-interest and are not required to be kind and respectful, it makes sense to severely limit the power those in government have over those not in government - again, not because people are kind and respectful, but because they're not.

The second is there is no protection of intellectual property or innovation.

That's a very interesting point, and one that is hardly a matter of dogma among libertarians (or even Libertarians, given that I couldn't find any mention of it either way in the national or state LP platforms). Some believe there's no such thing as IP, believing instead that property is by definition physical, where IP is decidedly non-physical. Others believe that IP is a very logical extension of the prime libertarian belief that an individual owns himself and the product of his labor (an individual's property, physical and intellectual, being products of his labor) and can defend and contract for the use of that product. Still others are in between, believing that IP exists and should be protected, but that the government-run system of copyrights and patents is a bad way to do it and should be abolished and replaced by something else.

So while I don't have what you might consider a convincing answer to your point (I haven't even fully decided for myself where my beliefs lie in this area), I hope I've provided reason enough not to throw out the entire libertarian philosophy wholesale based solely on a plank that 1) doesn't have widespread consensus within the libertarian community, and 2) doesn't seem to be a fundamental, heart-of-the-matter concept that makes one a libertarian or non-libertarian (in much the same way that a disagreement between Christians over if/when the Second Coming will happen doesn't mean that one party or the other isn't a Christian).

Still others are in between, believing that IP exists and should be protected, but that the government-run system of copyrights and patents is a bad way to do it and should be abolished and replaced by something else.

So knowing that any process or idea can just be copied and used for the benefit of something or someone else, what is my incentive to do exactly that? The 'free market' you embrace depends upon people's inventiveness. People are inspired to be inventive for the simple reason that there will be some type of reward for that innovation.

If I can just sit back and copy someone else's ideas the system will eventually breakdown.

Let's take it a step further. Let's say I write a book. About anything. But since emminent domain is a libertarian hot button issue, let's say it's about emminent domain. After years of research and proof reading I finally get published. You are from Philadephia and are out visiting in CA and you know it hasn't hit the book shelfs on the East Coast. You catch the next flight home, rip off the cover and put your name and title on it and start the presses rolling. What would be my incentive to write another book?

The society then dissolves into who or what is the best capitalized and not creative. And like it or not, capitalism needs that creativity to function and flourish.

There are other holes, but those are two of most significant.

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